Braid breaking on hook set Braid breaking on hook set
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    Braid breaking on hook set
from bjmidgeman (70.36.31.72)  
9/12/2006 12:58:00 AM

Rated:

 Well I did a search for what knots to use with braid. I have not used the Triple fish braid knot but do use the doubled Palomar as suggested by PowerPro and I wet the knot before I tighten.


I have been pitching to lilypads with 65lb power pro tied to Gammie EWG superline hooks on a Fenwick flipping stick. Using a rattle bead and a pegged tungsten sinker (tru-tungsten and excalibur). Twice now I have broken the line on a hook set (once in a tourney).


Both times I remember looking at the knot sometime beforehand and sliding it back from where the hook eye closes. Both times have been right just about as the bait enters into the water (the pads are thick forming a mat). I have some slack and do set the hook hard.


Some of my thoughts are: I am setting the hook too hard, the line is sliding into the tiny gap of the hook eye, poor knot (don't know about this as I caught a 4 pounder a couple hours earlier), or a pike eats it (there are pike).


Any thoughts or suggestions. Also, when tying the doubled palomar; how do you get it to tighten down so it does not slide on the hook eye? Or is braid slick enough it just slides around? And with the doubled up Palomar there is the meat of the knot and one of the "loops", this "loop" seems to slide away from the other portion. Am I not tying this correctly or tightening down hard enough?


Thanks everyone for your help.


BJ


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   Beware Tungsten from Rick from Lafayette (68.226.141.179)  9/12/2006 6:23:00 AM
 I also use Power Prop 65# and have never broken it on a hook set. I do not use a weight as I use it mainly for my frogs. But, be careful with tungsten weights. They are notorious for breaking all kinds of lines, especially if they are pegged. They are extremely hard and don't have that forgiving metal characteristic that lead has. I am a big user of tungsten bullet weights but I use the rubber peg-its, and still re-tie often, just to move the weight to a new location on my line.


   A couple of issues. from TroyJ/Angling Alabama   9/12/2006 6:34:00 AM
 I learned the hard way down in Florida. Anytime you tie braid to a super-line hook you should use a drop or two of super glue on the knot. That goes for any knot. When fishing heavy vegetation, I've found that any knot I tie will slip out under a load. Super line hooks of course are made with thicker wire, and the knots alone just don't hold. (Especially in pads and cane).

And... there is no reason to use the incredible herk hook set with braid, especially on a short line. You'll lose more fish, lose more baits and tear up more gear than you need to. Just a firm pull is all you need to set the hook properly.

Angling Alabama - Troy Jens / Professional Fishing Guide / Experience the best of the outdoors on Lake Guntersville, the Tennessee River and North Alabama.

   Set your Drag... from RandyB (198.208.159.20)  9/12/2006 10:01:00 AM
 You didn't mention your drag setting. Perhaps you should back it off.

In the heat of the moment, it's tough to untrain yourself if you are used to really whacking them. The drag can be your safety valve.


   Nother thought... from Drew (128.227.27.134)  9/12/2006 11:02:00 AM
 You mentioned that you occasionally notice your line wedging down in the crack where hook wire is bent back down onto itself to form the eye of the hook. I have seen the same thing and I'm convinced that this creats critical wear on the braid near the knot. This has caused me some heartbreak. I'd suggest experimenting with things like jb weld, two part epoxy, or silver solder. Drip/paint/mold one of these into the wire gap to eliminate any chance of a gap. Make sure you have a smooth surface as to not introduce another source of line wear. Maybe braid failure can be attributed to a pike or a mudfish, but it's always hard to tell. You gotta eliminate any form of user error.


   I fish around Pike... from Tyson (64.162.54.83)  9/12/2006 11:16:00 AM
 If it is a pike or any othey toothy critter, the line will just "Float" on the hookset. What I mean is, you will feel almost no resistance because the line will slice like butter.

I flip with braid alot, if it is going through the eye of the hook (happened to me 2 times now), you will still see a perfect knot. I use a palomar and have seen it twice. If you don't have a knot left over, it was not this.

One thing I noticed was that you are using a bead... Perhaps the force of a hard tungsten weight across it is causing it to split and shatter? Glass will dice through braid easily. Maybe try plastic beads if you are set on using them? I never use them though.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.


   hiook eye from TimS (143.166.255.40)  9/12/2006 11:21:00 AM
  It's the hook eye problem. That is a very common problem. The gap varies with hooks from time to time. Reaction Innovations has come out with a flipping hook that has the gap welded/soldered shut.


   dumb question from Hank Parsons (204.96.4.4)  9/12/2006 12:10:00 PM
 If it was the hook eye slipping, wouldn't he be getting his knot back?

I'd keep a close eye on that Tungsten. If any coating wears off...even if not around the hole in the weight, it can break you in a heartbeat. Also, recently I got a batch of Power Pro that was no good. I could feel the line weekening when I tightented the knot. just didn't feel right. Sure enough, that line broke on me. I started using the Pline braid and I really like it.

And on a short line, just real down, and lift the fish out of the cover. One motion.


   Gap in hook eye from Team Bass (216.243.200.225)  9/12/2006 2:09:00 PM
 I too experienced this a long time ago when I first started using braid. Rather than go through the hassle of trying to solder the gap in the hook eye shut I just tie a mono knot and slide it down to the gap and trim the end. I found that this will prevent the braid knot from ever reaching the hook eye gap and the mono knot also helps to keep soft plastics from sliding down the hook.


   Another Nother idea... from RandyB (198.208.159.20)  9/12/2006 5:54:00 PM
 If you think the line is slipping around to the gap, you can put a flat toothpick into the hole to keep the line in position.

I started doing this six months ago and really like it. I just hide the eyelet inside the worm (etc) and then put a flat toothpick thru until it is snug. Then I cut off the extra toothpick ends.

You are left with a little tee that really holds the plastic in position well. Keeping the line from rotating into the gap would be icing on the cake.


   Thanks for the comments/suggestions from midgeman (216.98.224.113)  9/12/2006 6:41:00 PM
 Thanks everyone!

I am pegging the weights with a rubber t-stop, and I am using a plastic bead with a rattle in it (I think Northland used to make them). On both instances I have felt a bit of weight on the end (like a fish was there). Does anyone know who makes a bead similar to this or if there are any supplies of the Northland beads out there?

I think my biggest problem is not getting the knot to tighten enough. Powerpro suggests using a dowel, gloves, or soft pliers to tighten the knot down. Has anyone done this, and if so does the knot still slide on the hook eye? Also, if I wrap around a dowel am I damaging the line? Hmmm.

I am going to say the knot is not slipping as I get nothing back but a frayed end. One time was so bad it looked like the end of a paint brush.

And the advice about hooksets...I am sure you are right on. I sometimes get excited, and want to make sure I get 'em out of the cover and into the boat.

Thanks again!

BJ


   It's the Gap... from Marc (67.183.227.57)  9/12/2006 7:29:00 PM
  ...like the others said. Gamakatsu figured this out a while ago, and have cured this problem by coming out this year with a superline hook with a ring in the eye. The welded-closed ring is what you tie your braid to, and it eliminates line cutting because the line can't slip in the sharp gap of the hook eye. The Gamakatsu page touts the hook as giving flukes and other lures "more action", but I was involved in the creation/testing of this hook and I know first-hand that the reason for the ring is to prevent the very problem you have described. Here is a link to the hook:

http://gamakatsu.com/new_products/new_superlineewg.htm

ciao, Marc


   If you are getting back... from Rick from Lafayette (68.226.141.179)  9/12/2006 7:29:00 PM
 If you are getting back frayed ends it looks like your knots are all right.


   knots from swampshark (68.11.209.4)  9/12/2006 8:43:00 PM
 I learned the hard way about breaking knots on the hookset with braided line. You cannot physically tighten the knot enough with your bare hands that it won't slip or break on a strong hookset. It will cut you to the bone before you can tighten it enough! When you set the hook, it either slips and comes untied or it finishes tightening instantly and snaps. Notice that is almost impossible to break the line by steadily pulling on a snag to get it unhung! I've learned to back off my drag a little bit (easier to do than trying to modify a hookset you've been using all your life) and before I cinch the knot down, I put a very small drop of superglue and then finish tightening the knot as far as you can. Now the knot will not slip nor will it continue to instanly tighten on the hookset. Lesson well learned from the SwampShark!


   Another nother nother idea from RandyB (68.52.23.20)  9/12/2006 11:35:00 PM
 I don't know about 65# braid, but on 30# PowerPro I've found that I can get a tighter knot as follows:

I tie a palomar and, after passing the hook thru, I put my finger in-between the two lines going down to the hook and the two that make the loop.

I tug so that the loops close on the two main lines. Not fully tight, but pretty snug. Then, when I pull on the main lines, that little set of loops move down to the eyelet together. The final bit of tightening is the mainlines pulling the last bit of slack out of that little set of loops.

I don't know if this makes sense, but the old way I did it, the loops would sometimes catch and have friction, creating some slack inside the knot.


   check your rod tip. from fishEH (67.184.222.83)  9/13/2006 1:40:00 AM
  Check the rod tip and guide. Could be a rough spot in it that weakens your line. If you repeatedly reel your bait up to within 10 inches of your tip and cast, this repeated motion could be weakening your line in the same spot with every cast. The weak spot isn't exposed until you set the hook.

If its not the rod tip its probably the hook eye. I'm very carefull when tightening my Palomar that the loop doesn't end up on the wrong side.


   A big problem... from Mike B (149.4.108.172)  9/13/2006 2:57:00 PM
 I fish a lot of braid, and can attribute almost every break to being lazy on my part. You mention you caught a 4 lber a few hours ago. Did you re-tie after? Braid gets abraded and isn't indestructable. I retie my braid every hour or so, otherwise, I get break offs. I've been anal about re-tying after losing a nice fish in a federation event and being one fish out of the money (2 tenths actually, and having only 4 to weigh in!) after breaking off a nice one. Never again!


   Knot and line from DatingmatingAndRelating.com (208.60.252.45)  9/14/2006 1:16:00 AM
 

Lots of good tips here. I had the same problem and fixed it by changing everything... smaller, higher tensile strength hooks with smaller barbs for easier penetration, lighter rod, adjusting the drag so as to slip a little on hook set, no Tungsten weights, and mono line with better knot strength, and a better knot. I don't break lines on the hook set anymore - ever.

Braid has tremendous tensile strength to diameter ratio, but is notorious for having poor abrasion resistance and knot strength. There is no free lunch. I like the tips on adding glue to the knot... did some research on knots, and found out they break when they slip. If you want to try the best knot for braid, learn how to tie a clinch knot... use 9 turns for braid. It's the strongest knot I have ever seen for braid.


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