New boat prices?? Going up? How can we find out New boat prices?? Going up? How can we find out
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    New boat prices?? Going up? How can we find out
from sde13  
7/18/2010 8:54:48 AM


 What the dealers are paying? Consumer reports has a site that shows what car dealers pay and you can use that to get a better price. Boat makers just keep jacking their prices up every year? Are they payng their workers more? I bet NO! Let me guess? Healthcare cost? That should stop soon, how about profit for their pockets? Which is all go to a point, then it becomes a rip off! I think we are at that point and have been for a long time. ANyone know a site that has dealer cost? What is the mark up? WHy are they kept hidden? ashamed of the huge profits/ or customers might stand up against the high prices and stop paying 50000 for a new boat?

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   see, that's what makes this country great.. from brojsimpleton  7/18/2010 9:05:31 AM

a broke-ass sweathog idiot living week-to-week gets to bitch about the price of luxury items..

gawd bless america..

   2% from Mad Max #13082  7/18/2010 10:03:01 AM
 Most boats are going up around 2%. What you don't see on Consumer reports is the "Hold Back" or any other back end money on cars. There is no "Hold Back" on boats. If a dealer makes 10% on a 50K bass boat that would be above normal.Bass Boats are high maintenace/low margin. That is why there are so few bass boat dealers, or bass boat manufacturers left in business. People who don't have a clue always compare prices to years ago. Well years ago we all were buying 17 1/2 footers with carb. 150 engines, 2 flashers and a standard 24V trol motor. Now all of the KVD wanabees think they have to have 21 footers with 250 fuel injected engines,5K worth of electronics, 2 power poles, etc, etc.Consumers are just as culpable in 50K plus boats as any of the manufacturers. You can buy several very nice 18 footers for under 30K, that can compete with anyone, "if you gots da skills".

   consolidation from BCB  7/18/2010 10:05:41 AM
  oh no, NOT AGAIN!

In the heydays of bass boats there were literally tens of thousands of the bass boats sold. There were up to fifty (50) or more boat manufacturers at any one time calling themselves bass boat builders in those years. Those rotated in and out and we can put a list of failed companies up that would shock and bring nostalgia to many.

There were dozens of boat dealers hanging an engine banner out on everything from boat docks to tackles stores, and often just a little shop. That all changed along the way to these higher prices, more equipment and less manufacturers as well as dealers. Today's successful dealers are successful as they learned to be versatile. They learned to market, save and survive.

The dealerships are less than ever before. If it were grossly profitable would there be less dealers? In those small towns of the USA where once stood three or four dealers, you will be lucky to have one and some towns don't have any. It was so profitable that if you want to buy a boat in Springfield, MO, Bass Pro Shops is your only area option. Sport Boats has bass lines in Nixa (about 15 miles south), though they are a cruiser and runabout complex really. There once were a dozen had core bass boat dealerships in a similar area.

We have often said that we don't like the escalating prices, the growing equipment, the longer list of options and horsepower. Though you as consumers are not flowing to the offering of $30,000 boats as you probably can't afford ir justify those, and most you are unable to absorb the $40,000 to $60,000 price tags. Though it is the largest share of the market for many. Only you change that by changing your decisions.

It appears that we now have five (5) so considered major builders with BCB being be far the smallest. If the now discussed acquisition comes through that would leave four (4) major builders and another six (6) or so minor builders in a market that had probably close to 100 small and large builders at one given time. And a few of those have production numbers so low we have more boats owned by one retail consumer than one or two of these builders produced.

Many of our work force have been with us over 10 to 20 even 25 years and we have all enjoyed our children being raised. Shucks, often at BCB it is like old home week as we have those who hold other jobs now just drop by and piddle on some of our projects to stay in touch and make a few extra bucks. Some just can't seem to shake building boats and they enjoy it. They do our upgrades and rebuilds. Then there are others who have worked here that move on to other careers and buy a new or used BCB model. We love to see them back.

It would be great if this were INTEL and we could make a 50% profit line where they could all drive new Fords, though it isn't. And we don't see a rant about the price tag of your computer you typed this on.

If you are sure it's so profitable and the dealers and boat companies are all gouging, bring your check book and banker to North Arkansas we have a little ground here for you.

We live for and love what we do and that is why we do it.


PS: brosimpleton, we often get raw over your post and think your way out of touch, though you had a really nice reply on this one.

Edited 7/18/2010 10:09:59 AM

   I dont think so, you still are not answering the question?? from sde13  7/18/2010 10:39:41 AM
Good try to reinvent the question, but car makers, airplane makers, boat makers, all have bought up, put unreasonabled rules on small dealers so they cant afford to stay in business. You know that current dealers must buy a certain amount of boats from you to carry your product?? It didnt used to be like that and it killed off the small dealer and made the bigger dealers richer. So that is a kind of bait and switch answer. Plus no maker wants their customers to know what it cost them as thy would lose the denial part of huge profits. Maybe one day someone will put up a site and the consumer will finally have the true dealer cost and we then will be able to have fair boat pricing.

   OK sde 13.... from Mad Max #13082  7/18/2010 10:48:20 AM
 A 2011 Ranger Z521 will have to sell for over 56K with no options. What do you think that boat cost the dealer?

   BCB.....question from Beartrap   7/18/2010 11:10:23 AM
you probaly have read at one time or another the "One Minute Manager" that was popular some years ago....some said it made a lot of sense,others thought it was over simplified answers to over simplified problems.....

here's question prompted by your comment about our recollection of what i've paid for computers is that the cost has actually gone down...I realize part of that is with the growth of computer sales there is some savings in economy of scale but we certainly haven't seen computers go from $1,000. to $6,000-$7,000. like we have bass boats in about a ten year span...

my probaly over simplified solution would be for the remaining 4-5 boat manufactors to get together and invite(demand they be there) the major suppliers of components for boat manufactoring to a meeting including the engine manufactors......

the agenda would be real simple....tell them we can sell boats for $20-30,000 but we can't sell them for $50-70,000...and if we continue to keep trying,we will all be out of business...and we will all be losers..
We want you to reduce your prices to what they were 10 years ago.....and take whatever measures to do this which probaly will include reducing your own compensation and having a similar meeting with your suppliers and demand they do the same...
I'm told Wal-Mart has done this and it has worked to reduce prices and made them competitive in some areas that they weren't previously....I'm aware Wal-mart has the ability to reward their suppliers with huge numbers of products sold which probaly the boat manufactors don't however collectively,you should be able to make your voice heard...

   Problem there Beartrap....... from Mad Max #13082  7/18/2010 11:24:35 AM
  Is your cheaper computer is most likely now made in China or somewhere. Most products that have went down in price, are now made offshore. Vietnam is now the low cost producer, and products are finding their way over there to be made. Anyone for a Vietnam made Bass Cat?

In 1984 Hubert Greene was selling a 370 Ranger, with a GT 150 Johnson (carb) for $14,995. You can today get a Z7 Nitro, with a 150 Mercury Optimax (Direct injected) out the door for around $24,000. It won't have gas shocks on all the lids, nor will it have hydraulic steering, but neither did a 1984 370 Ranger.

Edited 7/18/2010 11:25:41 AM

   mad max-there are savings to be had in this country from Beartrap   7/18/2010 12:24:03 PM
 Moving manufacturing operations overseas is a quick fix and probaly was only way to effect significant savings at one time but things are changing....

many companies are going to the taxing authorities even the utility companies and getting reductions....Ma Bell who would laugh at you at one time is (I'm told)willing to negotiate...there are savings to be had but it has to come across the board from the smallest supplier to the largest...most businesses are faced with declining sales(or going out of business themselves) and are more willing to listen and cooperate now...
There's a group of fishermen that get together here once a week for lunch..this group probaly is representative of fishermen across the country is that all income levels are present. Some can afford $50-70,000. bassboats but all of us are saying,we are not going to spend that for a bass boat......
so-if they want to sell 20 ft boats and 250 hp engines,they better figure out a way to get the cost down..otherwise doctors,wealthy businessmen and pro fishermen are going to be their only customers...

   Well, I can verify one part. from Funky  7/18/2010 12:33:16 PM
 Cause I did buy a Ranger with a GT 150 from Rose and Hubert in 1984 for $14,995... but it was a 375! Hubert said he didn't care much for them, but he did throw in a set of transom tie-down straps.

Thanks Max for reminding me how friggin old I am! ;o)

   Its hard to argue this point with one of the best boat makers. from sde13  7/18/2010 12:38:19 PM
I would have to ASK on a site that has one of the few makers that actually cares about their customer, so I cant win my point I know. I just want a site that has the true dealer cost of all the bassboat made for the public. Like consumer reports does for the car buyer. If that were made public maybe customers like me who bought their first house for under 50000 wont have heart failure when they see the prices on bassboats. Take for example the Pantera II with a 200hp basic equipment. What is the makers cost vs dealers markup? HOW CAN THE CONSUMER PROTECT THEMSELVES from being ripped off IF NO ONE KNOWS THE DEALERS COST?

   see, that's what makes this country great.. from brojsimpleton 7/18/2010 9:05:31 AM from sde13  7/18/2010 12:48:29 PM
see, that's what makes this country great.. from brojsimpleton 7/18/2010 9:05:31 AM

a broke-ass sweathog idiot living week-to-week gets to bitch about the price of luxury items..

gawd bless america..

To you brojsimpleton,

I am willing to put my networth up against yours anyday my friend, if you dont own over 500 hundred acres of interstate frontage I would not be so quick to make remarks about others. The last appraisal was upwards of 25000 an acre so you do the math. Oh my! That is about just above broke ass sweathog idiot isnt it? DOnt you know people with money are the ones who fight over a dime? DUH!

   Cornflakes...... from Mad Max #13082  7/18/2010 12:54:11 PM
Is there a website that tells you how much Walmart pays for a box of Cornflakes? If there was, would it make a difference? No you would still pay the same.

   typically the manufactors cost is 25% of retail from Beartrap   7/18/2010 1:05:33 PM
that's been rule of thumb for years.....

   Interstate frontage in WV? LOL! from Bucket  7/18/2010 1:32:03 PM

Who appraised it, your Uncle Dad? I suggest you try to build a denture factory on that frontage. Dentures should be a thriving industry in those parts.

No offense to my Reds bro, DaveT. I'm sure he still has a few teeth left.

   The price is whatever the market will bear. from Spookchucker #10778  7/18/2010 1:39:41 PM
Once it gets more than the market will bear, most will go out of business. A very few will figure out how to build & reduce price to market supportable levels.

   tarrying on... from BCB  7/18/2010 2:02:10 PM
Mad Max and Funky, that was the nostalgia part there. Good for you on remembering those days.

Below we are not trying to be confronting though realistic.

sde13, so how much did you or someone else pay for that 500 acres of interstate frontage? What is a fair profit margin for your land or a boat dealership to survive on. What percentage of profit do you intend on making on that little piece of investment?

If someone were to put up a site the visits would be dormant by comparison. There at one point were over 130,000 Ford F Series trucks built in one month. The entire marine market in 2010 will rotate around or under 200,000 boats, it was in the 100,000 category. That is the entire marine powerboat segment. Saltwater, Runabout, Pontoon, Jet boats, Ski & Wakeboard, Bass, Aluminum, Walleye, Small Cruiser, Large Cruiser, Center Console, Flats, Skiffs and Deep Vee, including all commercial also.

The boating industry is in a desolate situation overall. As is most manufacturing to some degree. Yamaha Corporate one year losses would buy that piece of real estate a couple hundred times. Brunswick's losses the last two (2) years combined will buy your piece of ground and over 100 more just like it at the value you espouse. Boat makers are expiring and you speak as if it is profits that keep sales that low. It is costs and demand that raise prices, though lack of sales at all levels keep us down where we are. The 20k to 30k models are not selling either. Sure you could sell more $25k models if they were a focus, though you can not pay overheads and labor on those units alone. You have to build that market when times are good, not when times are critical. And not China is no option on the production.

We overlook that the issue is exportation of jobs and we are not making enough as the jobs have changed slowly since the 1980. NAFTA helped this, though it was happening before. Corporate America is exporting jobs to increase profit. Which is the other scenario.

The reference on the INTEL situation is that they are profiting in the 50% or revenue range on that computer chip in these boxes and we don't see anyone complaining about that being unreasonable profits. If it were your bank, you would be livid. And yes the importation/exportation and lower associated production costs is one of the reasons profits are higher in some of those fields, and less money than they were as a mostly USA produced product.

There is no defending this to those who claim that the bass boat market is highly profitable. Since you obviously might be able to afford a little boat company in Arkansas, go ahead and bring that check book and your banker.

Perspectives are different on all sides. Yours, mine, and theirs as well. As for us, we are headed to the lake now!

Gone fishin'!


Spookchucker is on target.

Edited 7/18/2010 2:03:16 PM

   Why? from Funky  7/18/2010 2:08:39 PM
Why does it make any difference what it cost the dealer? And why is it any of your business? The only question is what are you willing to pay. Do you go to the grocery store and demand that the manager show you what he paid for that can of beans? What about your house... did the builder tell you what it cost him to build it?

I'm not sure how that practice got started in the auto business, but it sure hasn't helped anyone... only created more deceitful selling practices. Funny how there are so many sites that tell you what the car cost the dealer, but none that tell you what it cost the manufacturer. You'd think there'd be at least one! What if your boss told you he needed to know what it cost you to live, so he can decide how much to pay you? I sure hope the practice does spread to anything else... especially lap dances.

Sde... you say you wanna protect yourself from being ripped off, so you need to know the dealer's cost. What protects the dealer from you ripping him off. What if you can afford and are willing to pay $50k for a boat and he sells you one for $45... did he not get ripped off? Maybe he should demand that info before he gives you a price.

   lol, interstate frontage.. from brojsimpleton  7/18/2010 2:09:44 PM

that's like sticking a food stamp in a biscuit and trying to call it a fortune cookie..

gawd I love this country..

   True story..... from Mad Max #13082  7/18/2010 2:29:09 PM
I know some guys that bought a new boat from a dealer, and the dealer gave them a check to go pick the boat up from the factory. Naturally they opened the sealed envelope to sneak a peak on their way to the factory. They thought, if the dealer is making this much money we need to go into the boat business. When they got back home they started a boat dealership. They quickly got them a financial a$$ whuppin, and went out of business. I am not making this up, they were in Beckley WV.

   cost from dontr20x #17419  7/18/2010 5:36:43 PM
 Biggest factor in the rising cost of boats as in everything else is inflation. The good ol' greenback ain't worth near what she was and is only going to become worth less and less until it is worthless. Try to buy a boat then.

   did I miss the part from MikeF  7/18/2010 5:57:07 PM
Did I miss the part where someone says they got such a great deal the salesman got fired. Or is that only on trucks. LOL

   yeah.. by gawd.. from brojsimpleton  7/18/2010 6:20:17 PM
(pan camera to the sweathog millionaire)

you see, I took that crooked by-gawd car salesman to the by-gawd cleaners on my new by-gawd F-150 by-gawd.. cause' I'm the man!

and the same idiot buys his tiny 100K cracker-box house and lies about it to all his buddies saying he paid 250K cause that's his castle..

stop the madness people..

   You gotta know the dealer cost for boats? from PPEN  7/18/2010 7:08:16 PM
  While that number might be interesting to know it is hardly relevant. Unless you know what his costs are to not just buy the boat from the manufacturer but also to pay for all his expenses he incures in order for him to stay in business until you are ready to buy. If our area is typical I would have to say boat dealers do not make a ton of money. I have seen more boat dealers go bust in the 17 years I have lived in this area than any other category of business. And most of these failed before the 2007 meltdown in our economy.

I have read many posts here on the BFHP saying the individual wanted a new boat but he would defer the purchase until his personal financial situation improved. Surely you see the cause and effect thingy at work her, right? So the less well capitalized boat dealers continue to fold. But still you want to know just what he payed for the boat you want to buy??? Better you should ask him if he can stay in business to service your boat considering the amount you payed for the boat.

Edited 7/19/2010 9:57:27 AM

   A dealer makes his money on service and accessory sells. from Wackoman  7/19/2010 7:10:44 AM
If he sell a boat to start with.

Manufacturers, I don't know.

   I support Calvary Children's Home from Wackoman  7/19/2010 7:19:54 AM

It's full of kids that might have been aborted.

Ask our friend Mustard Man about saving kids for adoption if you want know what real men of God can do.

   Bravo Wack from Hutch #10968  7/19/2010 10:39:05 AM
 We were lucky that my adopted (from Birth) grandaughter's mother had enough Christian upbringing to make her hesitate in getting the abortion that MOST "liberated women" were advising her to get because there is no way she could have supported Katy...and it was a not an easy or cheap process to secure our beloved Kathryn Faith. But God blessed us......... and I cry to think how many kids just like her are KILLED .......... every day..... Omg Noooooooooooo Hutch

   Wtf??? wrong thread waco! from sde13  7/19/2010 12:42:36 PM
Woman on what they want or need is non of you business, when you become one , unless you are, then maybe what you say doesnt ring honest?

   Mid Range Prices from Papafins  7/19/2010 12:47:24 PM
BCB says their mid range boats are not selling.

It has beenh my experience that in hard times the high end boats, cars, homes keep selling, as do the very low priced stuff.

The mid range which makes up a big portion of sales drops. The people that represent this section of the economy will either not buy or will buy something cheaper.
I would like to know how the tin boat business has been during this downturn.

While we are picking on the manufactuers we should take a hard look at the outboard companies. You can buy a small car for what some of these engines that are destined to blow cost.

If our car or truck motors and transmissions blew up as often then you really hear some screaming.

   sde13 from DaveT  7/19/2010 2:44:21 PM
Why don't you sale a couple of acres of that ground. And not worry about that price of the boat. Good luck in WV. Abortion is murder plain and simple. You ever ask your self just what choice the baby gets in the abortion. Thats right NONE.

   Youse guys pickin nits with the boat manufacturers ever from Dr. Phyl  7/19/2010 8:36:34 PM
do this with the lures made in Mexico or China or BonpharkIndia where the wages are pennies a day and the finished product probably means a couple hundred percent profit for someone probably using the money to do this country harm?? Maybe with the athletic shoes you wear to fish in then? The towels you wipe your hands with then? I bet you did it with the Yellow Rocket Fuel lube for your reels,,,,, figures out around $300 a quart last time I looked,,,, any big profit there??? How many of those products employed honest hardworking AMERICANS?

Edited 7/19/2010 8:47:46 PM

   I have an easy answer to this one from JohnM  7/19/2010 11:55:53 PM
We live in a country where sde13 has the total freedom to EARN HUGE PROFITS HIMSELF so he can buy any boat he wants. While you are at it how about picking up a few people down at the employment office so they don't have to sign that bill tomorrow borrowing money from China to extend benifits to 99 weeks of unemployment insurance as our government simply refuses to cut spending to pay for it.

You should be able to hire plenty of great people to work for you when the word gets out you like paying over a fair wage because your making HUGE profits.

I have a house or sale right now. The bank and and appraisal says it's worth X amount. Buyers are NOT qualified much less offering what it's supposedly "worth".

So what's your product going to be? I look forward to the IPO....wait you are going public since you don't belive in keeping anything private right?

Price is set at what the market will bear!



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