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SUBJECT: # 37237: Cod regs
Submitted by Capt.Spike (152.163.204.63) from NEW HAMPSHIRE on 4/2/02 7:23:00 PM
Not looking good. Should be some gloves dropped over this one.
http://www.bdssr.com/latest/f33_suit/f33_suit_update_apr.htm
Nothing about rec. proposals though. How convieniant. Check out the NAMA proposal (stewardship). They erronously state that rec.s have a lower length limit than the comm.s and also state that according to NMFS we caught 20% of the cod last year.(it still wasn't as much as their by-catch and was only 20% because of the strict regulations already in place). Open those up and we're not a hill of beans. In fact take the amount of fish we caught last year and apply it to the cod caught three years ago by the comm.s. Then what would our % be? Much smaller I'm sure. Its no wonder we'll take the shaft again. The people that may be making the decisions are being fed erroneous information by the very people they have depended on to keep track of such information. We'll take it in the keester again. Just as an unnamed poster suggested we do. I'm really getting sick of the politics played across the board. We are suposed to be governed by people looking out for our interest yet we continually get dragged down because we will put up with it. Its time we make sure we have people that are really looking out for our interests. Some of these guys in the game right now look pretty shady to me.
A disgusted Capt. Spike
- 4/3/02 7:54:00 AM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says What a friggin joke...
yeah, those make sense-close down the small boat fishermen who fish with hook and line and account for practically no by-kill, but let the f&%$^king draggers keep wasting 90% of what they catch. F*&^ing brilliant...CMP
- 4/3/02 11:45:00 AM
Submitted by
Phil (216.192.76.37) from MASSACHUSETTS says From the ridiculous to the more ridiculous
The 2 options proposed by NMFS is basically their answer to the ridiculous requirements from judge gladys who has admitted that she "didn't fully comprehend the problem." I wonder how many of these environmetal lawyers drive SUV and burn wood in their pretty mantel fireplaces. A lawyer is bad enough. An environmental lawyer is just too much. Might as well go all OUT and add "gay" in front of those 2 words--not that there's anything wrong with that...
- 4/3/02 1:48:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says Question to Capt. Spike an Capt. cmp
Right now when chartering, you are unrestricted to the amount of your catch, and you can charter fish in the closed commercial area. (15miles x 60 miles)The new regs will prohibit you from the Closed area. Would you accept some restrictions as a trade off to let you continue fishing in the closed area? If so what would they be;a bag limit, or a lenght increase above 21 inches, a poundage limit or something else. What restrictions would you take to allow you to fish the closed commercial area? - Tom
- 4/3/02 1:52:00 PM
Submitted by
Andrew from MASSACHUSETTS says Pathetic....
I'm with ya CMP, the little boats who don't do any of the damage to the bottom, have almost no by-catch what-so-ever are gonna be screwed. Its to bad their is so much greed out there with the big boats. I think you probably saw my argument with George the dragger on that other board. Might be some nice boats for sale this spring....Drew
- 4/3/02 4:18:00 PM
Submitted by
Cmp2 (24.128.133.234) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Tom, I do not...
think that ANYONE, commercial, charter or headboat should fish the closed areas-PERIOD. My main argument is that hook and line boats, including tub trawls do not do harm and to basically shut them down while allowing herion-addicted scumbags from gloucester and new beffid to drag is an affront to anyone's intelligence and I do NOT like to be insulted. Right now, these same jerkoffs who claim they are working stiffs, yada yada, are running down day boats, dragging small humps that smaller boats are working, running over all gill net and tub trawl gear. Basically, they are doing their level best to ruin the day boat fishery east of Chatham. F&^k them! nmfs doesn't have the balls to do anything about the bykill rates of these boats, instead, it rewards them for their destructive practices. Again, it's the small hook boat that should be in this fishery. 2,000 lbs/day, 88 DAS (even with the spawning limitationof 2:1), and no more than 2 permits per person makes for a vibrant and economically-feasible fishery.Question for all of you-of the $20 million expended in the 2 groundfish buyouts thusfar, care to guess how many draggers were put up? I'll give you a hint, it's less than one and more than -1. It's friggin pathetic and things are going to get real dicey over the next couple of months. I have never before agreed with a net-exclusion in a fishery, but in this case, it makes sense not only for fish stocks, but for the fishermen as well. Won't happen...
CMP
- 4/4/02 7:29:00 AM
Submitted by
Capt.Spike (207.141.187.5) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Question for Tom
Tom, when will you say there is enough restrictions on the sector that contributes nill to the decline of the fishery? What would your min. restrictions be? I think we have done enough and I'm not willing to give up more. A smaller fish length limit will just cause more discards from our sector. Although our mortality is near 99% it does introduce a larger # of fish returned that may or may not make it (for one reason or another, ie. sharks). A ten fish limit per person across the board is what I would call maximum we should put up with. How the rec. in his own boat and the rec. on charter / party boats ever got diferent limits I'll never understand. As far as five fish, who the heck would ever spend the money that some guys charge and even what the cheaper guys charge to catch five cod/haddock limit. There is only so much pollock and cusk that a angler wants and thats not much. As far as cats most are so afraid to see them they can't even think that they might taste good. Bottom line- some guys are for more restrictive length limits with no bag, others want access to closed areas with more restictive lengths and bag limits. I want to stay status quo. Adding restrictions to us is just to apease the comm. sector. It wont mount to a hill of beans conservation wise. If we have to go to a five fish bag limit I say shut the whole fishery down for two years. No one will be fishing cod recreationally anyway. Then as CMP stated the only guys left will be the big boats. As far as the small boats having minimal by-catch thats bull. They are still indesciminately dragging a net across the bottom and they are quit efficiant at what they do. In less than a week last July the wiped out all the bait in Ipswich bay. No bait+ no fish.Just my .02
Capt. Spike
- 4/4/02 10:03:00 AM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says Cod wars
I like your .02 But down here from Boston to Plymouth the battle is raging in earnest. I have charters fri- Sat- Sun- tues coming up weather permitting, and more after that through mid May out of Green Harbor. They are all $1,000 charters. Lot of money involved down here. And a lot of jealousy. Read this Globe article to see how the animosity of commercial and charter boats are playing out down here.- Tom http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/094/metro/Sport_fishing_cuts_cod_supply+.shtml
- 4/4/02 10:18:00 AM
Submitted by
Andrew from MASSACHUSETTS says Capt. Spike, I think you may have mis-read CMP's message...
"Then as CMP stated the only guys left will be the big boats. As far as the small boats having minimal by-catch thats bull. They are still indesciminately dragging a net across the bottom and they are quit efficiant at what they do."The small boats are HOOK & LINE, I'm not sure how you associated small boats with nets but on this one I am with CMP, all gill nets/draggers should be banned from this fishery. The fishery could be a healthy one if it were only tub trawl/hook & line with the 2000lbs/88DAS. Unfortunatly as also stated above it will never happen....
Drew
- 4/4/02 11:49:00 AM
Submitted by
Capt.Spike (207.141.187.5) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says yup I misunderstood
I thought you were refering to small draggers. I apologize.
- 4/4/02 1:25:00 PM
Submitted by
Andrew from MASSACHUSETTS says The sad part is that there is no good solution.....
At least not one that will be made in the middle of this political nightmare....Drew
- 4/5/02 7:48:00 AM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Tom, with all due respect...
are you trying to tell me that you don't have an inkling as to where these guys who show up with refer trucks of enclosed pick-ups are going with their fish? Come on. a buddy of mine and I went out on one of the large headboats that used to work out of Hyannis, the Navigator (aka Instigator) 5 years ago. We were there for a break-that's all. What I saw was pretty damn funny. Guys drove 8 hours from NY, Philly, etc to go cod fishing and I saw 2 refer trucks and 3 coverered pick-ups all loaded with ice and totes. My buddy and I stopped fishing at noon, as we had 4 totes full and didn't need more. We paid the mates to fillet them up for us and basically gave away 90% of what we had-it was more than enough. Well, between drifts, I watched these people rip, scrub and soak their fish-sound familiar? Sounds like the exact prep given to commercially-marketed fish, doen't it? When we returned to the dock, 10 totes of ripped fish went into the refer truck and no fewer than 12 into each of the pick-ups. Personal consumption? Puh-leeze, don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. Those fish went strait to Fulton or Philly's version thereof and I bet a large percentage of the guys you deal with do the same, as intimated in the Globe article. You know it and I know it.I have zero against honest cod charter boats and agree with Spike that going to a 24" limit would lead to high-grading the likes of which we haven't ever seen. However, no limit cod charters are not responsible in that they lead to the kind of stuff that's going on right in good old Greed Harbor. A reasonable bag limit for recs is needed and I don't think that 10 fish is enough. You guys can fight that one out, but the days of no limit charter fishing on a rebuilding stock are over...
CMP
- 4/5/02 7:54:00 AM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says By the way...
what's with the Wilmington, Delaware documentation?CMP
- 4/5/02 9:33:00 AM
Submitted by
Strat1 (134.174.237.1) from MASSACHUSETTS says Shut them down
I am amazed to learn that the charter boats let that happen. If paying customers walk off the boat with more than 5-10 fish, much less 10 totes of fish- that is WRONG and loop hole that Charter boats have taken advantage of. I think they should be SHUT DOWN IMMEDIATELY FOR LETTING THIS HAPPEN until new regulations can manage these greedy bastards!As for the Draggers, I used to work for NMFS as a Fisheries observer on many of these big draggers. The bi-catch is unbelievable, and I would vote to stop all the dragging immediately. For every cod we caught we discarded a 10 times the amount in dead or wounded fish. The crew of most of the boats would discard the by-catch overboard with a stick and a nail in it. Mortality rate of the bi-catch is astronomical. The crap that goes on Offshore would never be tolerated if the Public knew what was gone on. All the public cares about is the Human Treatment of the cute mammals, not anything else. SO I have a huge problem with the Draggers.
I also worked on the Gill-netters, and believe that is a much Cleaner (less by-catch) way to fish. But the people don’t like it cause a couple seals and porpoises dies. So we drag the bottom and destroy the habitat for the entire ecosystem with draggers —BullSh@$!!!
I commercial fish for Bass / cod out of Gloucester on my 20’ CC, so don’t think I am a tree hugger or Seal lover. I believe in managing each species in the best way possible. W
Does anyone know the dogfish are protected now, I have been catching more and more of them every year while cod fishing and bass fishing offshore and close in?
Thanks
kc
- 4/5/02 2:32:00 PM
Submitted by
FrankWa (204.28.140.7) from PENNSYLVANIA says Question.. What is the daily limit for a rec. angler?
I agree that some limit needs to be imposed on those who go out on charter boats. I'm one of those people from Lancaster, PA who on Tuesday drove to Green Harbor for a trip on Wed. which got cancelled when I arrived at the dock at 5AM on Wed.(this week). It cost me about $150 for gas, room, etc. not including the charter fee and potential tip. I lost this $150, S%%t happens. I'm not complaining.But the point is, for me to take a Cod fishing trip, it will cost me about $350+. So what is a fair limit? I personally would like to bring home about 30 to 50 lbs of Cod filet. But, I also want to see good conservation to insure this valuable resource is not destroyed. If I assume the average fish is about 8lbs and you get about 50% meat out of a fish, then 40lbs of filet would translate into about 10 fish. Thus, a reasonable limit for ALL anglers would be about 15 fish per day per person.
A 15 fish daily limit for an angler would more then give a person an adequate amount of Cod for their family. And, I see no problem with this being imposed on charter boat anglers and private boat anglers.
Also, from what I've seen, if the currently closed areas are opened to netting, I might as well stop coming to Green Harbor for my annual Cod trip since there soon would be no Cod or at least so few that it would not make it worth my while to spend over $350 for a fishing trip..
just my .02
- 4/5/02 7:49:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says cmp
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Tom, with all due respect... are you trying to tell me that you don't have an inkling as to where these guys who show up with refer trucks of enclosed pick-ups are going with their fishI can't ever remember saying that people wouldn't violate the law and sell those fish. Since those fish have value I would expect some of them would sell them.
They have done that. They also have been caught doing it by being fingered and being followed out of state from Green Hbr and busted when they sold the fish.
I did a Green Hbr Charter today and have 3 more in the next 4 days so I am going to hit the rack early. I'll check back tomorrow night. - Tom
- 4/5/02 11:09:00 PM
Submitted by
Macson (205.188.195.138) from MASSACHUSETTS says Cod Regs
While I have a great deal of respect Capt. Tom, there are more than enough of the meat hunter types represented in the Globe article to remove the cloak of innocence that some of these charter operations hide behind. In the process they give the commercials something to scream about and furthur distort an already screwed up situation. Some of these guys fit the same characteristics Cmp used for comms. While it may be their livelyhood, charters have no more right to abuse this fishery than anyone else. Promotional ads by these people tout 1500, 2500, 3500lb. caught in single day, although this may be primarily hype, it certainly doesn't reflect well on the industry and gives others ammo to shoot in this direction. Charters are hybrid com/rec, they can make their living on rec fishing. They can't have it both ways and be com/rec/com. If they can't make a living at it, get out of the business. Nobody has a first right or higher priority to these fisheries than anyone else. Both comms and charters voluntarily got into their line of work, nobody forced them to engage in the fishing business. Their livelyhood is no different than that of anyone else, there are no guarantees. I don't agree with closing the 15x60 mile area to everyone. I'm rec, private boat, unless I can be shown that I adversely affect the fishery, I don't want to be caught up in the if we can't fish there nobody can mentality. Comments on the following please: Why the size limit, especially in the deep water? The fish are snagged and injured at least as often as they are lip caught. The small fish even when cleanly caught rarley make it back down. I hate killing fish I can't keep. Rec bycatch. If charter boats are restricted to rec limits of 10 per angler per day, why can't harbor masters provide policing and charters be required to check their catches with them each day? The IGFA recently ran a statistic that rec fishing generates 20.7 billion dollars a year. If that figure is reality, or even if only one tenth of it is reality, why is this group unable to mount any type of a unified front and have a positive impact?
- 4/6/02 1:24:00 PM
Submitted by
Cmp2 (24.128.133.234) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Gee, there's a basic...
non-denial denial. Tom, you are an unindicted accessory before the fact. You know what they're doing, yet you gladly accept their money, aiding and abetting them along the way. Pathetic, but that's how you do things in greed harbor, I guess and you do this all in the face of people trying to make due in a fishery that is under assault by the feds. Gee, I wonder why there is animosity between you "charter" boats and commercial guys. Unreal...CMP
- 4/6/02 6:21:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says to cmp and Mascon
cmp when I post it is just to give people information about the inside of a subject they are not familiar with. You seem to want to ascribe motivation, and then attack me after you set the stage. Like doing charters is wrong because someone might sell the catch.In any event all the parties and the "interveners" are in Washington and going to try to give FED Judge Gladys Kessler a proposed solution. If they can't agree the Judge will make her decision probably on the 15th or earlier. (I remember Judge garritty's decision on forced busing in Boston a few years ago. Lets hope she donesn' panic and whack everyone with the most stringent regs.)
If they think the charter boat thing is out of control they will restrict it. It is not illegal to take people out on charter, it is illegal for the charter to sell the catch.
Mascon-There are so many angles to this cod situation. For example;
Up north where Capt. Spike and cmp operate they don't get most of the Out of state hard core cod fishermen to make up 90% of their charters. They probably have more family or guys just going out for fun. So to get into the Closed ARea they are more inclined to want to take as a trade off a 10 fish per person to get in the closed area.
Down here in Scituate Green Hbr. a 10 fish limit would turn away charters from out of state, so we are inclined here to want to raise the limit to 23- 24 inches and no bag limit for us to get into the Closed area. (which I fished today and what a beating from the easterly and big seas.) All charter groups are not the same and THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT AGENDAS, because they have different customers.
The cod charters on the south side of Cape Cod realize that if we here in the Gulf of Maine above lat 42 deg. get heavily restricted, they may benefit and get our customers. But I think they are going to get restricted also so that the fishing effort won't move there. I know 3 people who would move their boats to Chatham , Hyannis for charters if they get too restrictive up here.
As far as the the recreational fisherman goes The Rec. Fish Alliance(RFA) is battling for the rec fisherman the rest of the groups are asleep. Look at their web page and then look at the web pages of the other organizations.
And Mascom I am glad you said "Some of the charter operations" That is the situation; and most charter Capts I talk to all have the same usual suspect list when it comes to illegalities. And the list isn't all that long as some would have you believe.
Off to eat and bed. A 5Am charter departure. And we are on Daylight saving time tomorrow . Lose an hour sleep tonight and run an extra hour in the darkness tomorrow. Green Hbr tradition leave 5AM and return 3:30 PM. see ya. - Tom
- 4/7/02 12:32:00 PM
Submitted by
Macson (152.163.201.62) from MASSACHUSETTS says Capt. Tom
Capt. Tom, Thanks for the reply, cogent and informative. I recognize the pressure closed areas and bag limits would impose on you and others. I can't agree with an unlimited bag limit however, at worse it may have an adverse effect on the fishery, at the least its bad politics. In any event, I hope what ever comes out of this is something you can live with. BTW, a few of my relatives are comms and charters-all good guys and straight shooters and I think they, like you, represent the majority of those groups. Unable to find RFA, do you have a web address? More importantly, hows the fishing?
- 4/7/02 8:42:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says To Mascom
http://www.savefish.com/ is the RFA website. The fishing is not nearly as good on Stellwagen as it has been the last few years. There is only a few sandeels and herring there.. Usually they would turn the depthsounder into a red cloud. Now they are only there in small numbers. As far as the unlimited bag limit goes that is the present law and may get changed. Charter skippers don't make laws. That is up to the fisheries people and the courts.Took another beating today. Not as bad as yesterday. Only one person got sick yesterday in 6-8s offshore. Yesterday some charters turned back. Today I had 4 sick before we got to Stellwagen in 4-6 footers and they stayed that way all day until 1 Pm. The two survivors managed to jig a little over a hundred pounds of cod. Not a good day but other boats had the same experience. Since about 10- 15 boats go out in the morning, someone has to get on the cod somewhere. So there will be a high liner every day. We had our moment of glory last week.
It will be interesting when the new cod regs come down. - Tom
- 4/8/02 8:53:00 AM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Puh-leeze, tom...
Your quote: Down here in Scituate Green Hbr. a 10 fish limit would turn away charters from out of state, so we are inclined here to want to raise the limit to 23- 24 inches and no bag limit for us to get into the Closed area. (which I fished today and what a beating from the easterly and big seas.)So, what you're telling me and everyone here is that it's ok for a no-limit charter to fish an area that is closed to commercial fishermen of all types and pull 1,500 or more pounds, most of which are, by your own admission, headed for sale illegally? Gee tom, you ought to do an ad for the BBB.
You wrote: I can't ever remember saying that people wouldn't violate the law and sell those fish. Since those fish have value I would expect some of them would sell them.
So that makes it ok in your book? You have no culpability to not help them break the law? Yep, I guess the cardinals who sent the pedophiles to other parishes were right too. After all, THEY weren't doing the diddling, they underlings were.
You claimed: All charter groups are not the same and THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT AGENDAS, because they have different customers.
Yep, very true. MOST charters are out there for the enjoyment of thier customers. You and the rest of the greed harbor boyos are promulgating an illegal market for a restricted species.
You state: Like doing charters is wrong because someone might sell the catch.
Yes, tom, it is wrong, and you know it. You merely refuse to admit it because you can get a grand a day and look the other way while your charters load ripped, market-ready fish into a iced truck or a refer truck and head south to Fulton. You are so full of crap it's coming out of your ears adn one can only hope that reasonable restrictions are put into place to stop the booolsheet you and your buds are trying to sell.
Also, good luck getting a slip on the Cape. I operate from both NH and Chatham. We're plenty full and don't need the likes of you anywhere...
CMP
- 4/8/02 12:03:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says to CMP
HI Mark you wrote in part: Yes, tom, it is wrong, and you know it. You merely refuse to admit it because you can get a grand a day and look the other way while your charters load ripped, market-ready fish into a iced truck or a refer truck and head south to Fulton. You are so full of crap it's coming out of your ears adn one can only hope that reasonable restrictions are put into place to stop the booolsheet you and your buds are trying to sell.Also, good luck getting a slip on the Cape. I operate from both NH and Chatham. We're plenty full and don't need the likes of you anywhere...
Hi Mark. Your rants against me are unfounded, and I think it is not good for an free exchange of information on this board or any board to just attack people without knowing ALL the facts. You can have a legitimate beef with the the law that allows charter boats unrestricted catches. That law applies to you also. You didn't make the law and neither did I. The beef should not be amongst us fishermen, but over the law. Now why you want to make it a personal issue with me and resort to name calling I don't understand. - Tom
- 4/8/02 12:54:00 PM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says Wow, what garbage...
tom, it's personal? Nonsense. You make statements that are tantamount to admitting that you know illegal activities take place because of your business. That is pretty damn simple and is a window into your world, one that reeks, IMO. You protest too much, tom...CMP
- 4/8/02 3:23:00 PM
Submitted by
Capt. Tom (66.31.162.67) from MASSACHUSETTS says To cmp again
Well I am glad it is not personal.We should kmow within a week what the new groundfish regulations are. Hopefully the new regs won't touch of another round of hard feelings between fishermen-like the present rules have.
The pure recreational angler,(outside of the RFA) hasn't put up much of a beef about the proposal being cut back to 5 cod/day, an increased size limit, and being kept out of the commercial closed area. I just came from a Bait shop owned by a friend and he figures the recs won't beef until they get stuck.
Going to be some interesting times coming up on May 1 st, when these proposals go into effect. -Tom
- 4/8/02 4:01:00 PM
Submitted by
cmp (216.177.24.30) from NEW HAMPSHIRE says I'd hammer anyone...
who so shamelessly flaunts the spirit and intent, if not the letter of a fisheries law so, no, it's never personal. What it is is logical. Now, after you've participated in this type of quasi-illegal activity and profitted therefrom, you are relying on the gubmint to stop you? Too funny-"Stop me before I kill again"-isn't that the line from a movie? BTW, NOBODY should be fishing in a closed area, NOBODY. As to limits-15 seems fair...CMP
