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SUBJECT: # 13245: Interested in 454 failures and serious problems........
Submitted by K (24.4.252.176) from VIRGINIA on 12/27/1999 6:44:00 PM
We are at our wits end.
We are on engine #3 on a one year old boat.
Volvo changed props from B5's to B3's, and now with 10 hours on engine #3, we are surging, and have to run the boat at 4000 rpm to keep on plain. Anything under 4000 rpm boat sqauts down in the water.
We are burning twice the fuel as normal with B3's vs B5's. But Volvo says with B5's, we are over propped.
Would appreciate any comments or problems with 454's.
- 12/27/1999 7:06:00 PM
Submitted by
cptntony (207.172.196.222) from NEW JERSEY says K - Lets sort this out first!
First you talk about ENGINE failure, then you are talking proper PROPPING.!1) Does the engine surge at idle or at high rpms?
2) By surge, do you mean the prop is aerating / cavitating when riding in smooth water at 4000+rpm, or is the prop holding and the engine rpm fluctuate anyway?
3) Is it a straight inboard or I/O (trim angle??)
4) Type of boat, LOA and beam measurements would be nice just in case.
- 12/27/1999 7:21:00 PM
Submitted by
K (24.4.252.177) from VIRGINIA says Ok.....more info!!!!!
Today, we ran for the first time since the third 454 was installed in our boat in 6 weeks. Volvo stated the boat was overproped causing the engine failure. They made us put B3's on the outdrive.Today when we left, the bay was calm and the boat was performing as could be expected with a new motor. As I did with the boat new, I varied rpms and broke the motor in according to Volvo's owners manual.
When we were returning to the marina, the motor started surging as much as 400 rpms at any speed. The boat we have is heavy.It is a Carolina Classic 25, and until last month, performed great.
We are at our wits end. With the B3 props that Volvo made us except, the boat will not stay on plane less than 4000 rpms. I think the motor will not hold up at these rpms.
Any comments/suggestions are appreciated.
- 12/27/1999 8:19:00 PM
Submitted by
Ty (207.172.145.216) from MARYLAND says Somethings Not Right!!!
If this is the 3rd engine in 6 wks something is not right. Did the dealer or whoever test run the boat after installation? If not get his butt on the boat and show him what it is doing!! Do not accept the work untill they show you that everything is working properly!! My 2 cents. Ty
- 12/27/1999 8:42:00 PM
Submitted by
Bayoudog (209.213.130.66) from TEXAS says 4000 rpm to stay on plane?
That boat with a 454 should get up and stay on a plane at under 2800 rpm. If it takes 4000 RPM to keep it on a plane, then your prop is too small or not enough pitch or you have too much of a reduction in your gearing. That engine should not be run at such a high RPM for more than a few minutes. It is like running your car at 70MPH on the freeway in 2nd gear.
- 12/27/1999 8:55:00 PM
Submitted by
Skipjack (207.0.205.3) from FLORIDA says Did You weigh the boat? no mess
x
- 12/27/1999 9:54:00 PM
Submitted by
Josko (129.190.153.113) from MASSACHUSETTS says something's way off here
The boat's either grossly overweight (wet) or something else is seriously wrong. Couls the drive trim/tilt be way off? I've run B3's with 454's on Carolina Classic 25's and they plane out at less than 3000 just fine. Should be getting 27+ kts at 3500. I'd guess that something is very wrong with the hull.
- 12/27/1999 10:03:00 PM
Submitted by
Don (12.12.210.8) from ALASKA says 454
What is the RPM at WOT with the B3 props? Is the trim/tilt working properly and what effect does the trim have on the boat RPM/Speed and DO NOT go by the trim gage numbers or what its showing. Run the drive all the way down, get it up on a plane and start trimming out untill the RPM starts going up(you may need to use the overide button) and the speed drops. Then trim down a untill the rpm is the highest without cavitating, and the speed is the highest. I would also suggest you have the installing dealer run the boat and check it out.Don
- 12/27/1999 10:14:00 PM
Submitted by
Sal (205.188.197.32) from CALIFORNIA says Gotta be in the outdrive.
Theres no way 3 engines will have the same problem. My money is on the outdrive. My guess is you have duo-prop. Bet one of the props. or shafts is slipping somehow. Forget running at 4,000 just to stay on plane. Theres no way a 25 ft. boat needs that kind of hp. to just stay on plane. Sal
- 12/27/1999 10:47:00 PM
Submitted by
Billybob (216.60.211.41) from ALABAMA says Try taking anchor up before attempting to plane boat.
nomsg
- 12/28/1999 1:44:00 AM
Submitted by
CaptOz (206.18.106.217) from Australia says A Volvo 454 owner.
Hi K. I run a 30-foot flybridge with a single 454 Volvo I/O duoprop. My boat has a deep V so tends to be slow up onto the plane but moves along well once there. I had B4 props and revved out only to 3,950 rpm WOT. I now have B3s and revs have risen to 4,250 with 28 knots showing (with a moderately dirty bum). I just hold a plan at 17 knots with 3,300 rpm. The boat weighs around 3.5 – 4 ton.1) Could it be that your I/O leg has an unusual gear ratio and does not suit the propeller type?
2) Is the boat bottom clean, especially around the stern?
3) Is your tacho accurate?
4) Does the surging feel like it’s due to propeller slippage or a motor problem?
- 12/28/1999 3:13:00 AM
Submitted by
cptntony (207.172.196.147) from NEW JERSEY says How about this
K, this is a quote from your follow-up post, first sentence, paragraph 2:"Today when we left, the bay was calm and the boat was performing as could be expected with a new motor. "
Now, if that is true, then the [engine / outdrive / prop] combination DID perform "as could be expected" at least WHEN everything is in sync. Based on this statement, logic would indicate that the powerplant/outdrive/prop combo should be OK since it CAN perform as it should. It is only AFTER you put the system through he break-in "maneuvers" and are returning to port that it begins acting up. So, something is happening (under load) either at the engine or the outdrive that is accountable to rpm fluctuations. Whether it is from a faulty electrical, vacuum or oxygen sensor(s), or from excessive play in tolerance between engine and outdrive AFTER being under loads has to be determined.
You have a fine rig for which you paid a lot of $$$. That darn dealer should hook the engine to an oscilloscope to check engine variables AS YOU RETURN TO PORT WHILE IT'S ACTING UP. Not when it's had a chance to cool down and warm up WITHOUT a load (sea trial). If you do not get satisfactory service, contact the Manufacturer directly and tell him about your posting and discussions about their faulty product over the internet. It's very hard to find your problem without proper diagnostic equipment.
- 12/28/1999 9:33:00 AM
Submitted by
Brian (207.197.237.172) from VIRGINIA says Check your tach
I can't say much about 454's or what you can expect out of a Carolina Classic, but I can tell you this: I have an I/O with a merc 260hp/ 350 cu. inch motor. I was at my wits end trying to figure out why I couldn't prop the boat/motor correctly. The motor didn't seem to have a cap on the rpm it would turn no matter what prop I put on. $700 in props later I remembered the old expression "When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be correct". I went out to Advance Auto and bought a $35 auto tachometer and straight wired it at the motor. I had a friend stand at the stern and read the rpm's to me while I looked at the in dash tach. Guess what - sometimes the in dash tach would surge, sometimes it was off by more than 800 rpm, while the new, straight wired tach just kept a steady 4300 rpm at WOT. If you've got a tach problem, It could explain the surging, etc. If it performs correctly sometimes and sometimes doesn't then the gearing etc. in the outdrive must be correct. I know you can "shred" the rubber bushing inside a Mercruiser prop, but I don't know if you can do the same with a volvo. This would cause a Merc. prop to slip on the hub once it gets under heavy load. What sort of gearing does the volvo have? There are several web sites that will calculate the speed you should be at at a certain rpm given the gearing of the outdrive, pitch, slip, size of prop, size of boat/weight etc. One is at Seattle props - I can't remember the exact web site, try Yahoo. Anyway - check the Tach first. By the way, I'm considering buying a 25' carolina classic in the next year or so. Other than the motor problems how do you like the boat? Is the factory service/warranty good? Good luck!
- 12/28/1999 9:18:00 PM
Submitted by
K (24.4.252.177) from VIRGINIA says Thanks For All Reponses....and Brian
We have no complaints with Carolina Classic or the dealer. Unforunantly, we bought out of state. However, they have been as good as I could reasonably ask for dealing long distance.Wish I could get the boat to them easily, because I do believe they would be determined until the problem is resolved. It is a chance you take buying out of state. We believed that our luck was sure to be better with this boat, but ole Murphy always seems to show up when you least expect him!
I also can't say that the repair shop we took the boat to hasn't tried to work with us and Volvo.
This boat is a beautiful to me, and super riding. It performed, handled rough water, did great offshore, and is layed out well for fishing all up until engine #1 died very abrupt, and suddenly.
Even though we are having a very frustrating DEJA' VOODOO - I wouldn't let our situation keep me from buying one of these boats.
Mac (Mr. Carolina Classic) has been very receptive to our calls. He is not untouchable, like so many others in his position, and is very knowledgeable.
We apparently have a unique problem, and all ideas are so appreciated. You never know when the one thing no else thought about will surface.
Again, I appreciate all of your responses, and I wish everyone the very best.